Are there too many nice guys in church? The problem according to Paul Coughlin, the author of "No More Christian Nice Guy" and "Married But Not Engaged," is that there are not enough guys, period. The expectations of the church keep too many guys away. If they understood what Jesus was really like, guys would be more comfortable in church. MC talked with Paul Coughlin about his plans for a conference entitled "No More Christian Nice Guy," which will be held next weekend at Lake City Church.
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MC: What should people expect when they come to this conference, "No More Christian Nice Guy?"
PC: The main thing is that they’re going to see the difference between being nice and being good. They’re going to see that in many ways the nice personality isn’t really that nice at all. What we describe often as niceness is often impassivity in disguise. When we think about the nice people we know in our lives, we should ask ourselves this fundamental question: "Do they ever stand up for injustice and related matters? If we were honest we would say that most of the nice people we have in our lives really don’t do that. And that’s one of the best ways to ferret out whether or not it’s genuine kindness and thoughtfulness, or whether or not it’s basically a way that people have figured out to hide and to appear to be virtuous and actually not be virtuous at all.
MC: And the idea behind this is that the reason a lot of men don’t go to church is because they don’t feel like they can be a man AND a Christian?
PC: Absolutely. They feel that their masculine nature is not welcome. And they feel that way because it’s true. You look at our worship music, the tempo, the style, and the content; you look at the expectations. Some of those lyrics are hard for a guy to sing. A lot of it is "Jesus is my new boyfriend" type of music, it’s very sentimental. Obviously our emotions need to be engaged in church. I’m not speaking against the lyrics and the style of music that brings the emotions to the surface and helps men express them. But numerous men will tell you that it’s more what women would want than men. Do most men want to stand up for 45 minutes and emote before service? Most do not want to do that but they’re expected to in many churches, certainly not all.
So the masculine nature isn’t very welcome. Look at how Mother’s Day and Father’s Day is presented in church. I know men who won’t go to church on Mother’s Day. In the past they’ve been told how horrible they are and how they should be better husbands. I t’s taken as an opportunity to correct those men out there because they’re not doing it right. Can you imagine if women were corrected on Mother’s Day the way men are corrected? I think you’d see a mass exodus. I don’t know if there’s a p astor with enough courage to do that. There’s something wrong with a guy’s nature, many of us have been told in church. I work to try to correct that as best we can.
MC: Obviously the conference is for guys. Is the conference for their wives as well?
PC: I have written a book for wives of the passive, fearful men, what I call Christian Nice Guys. My book "Married But Not Engaged" is for them. It’s how to reach their emotionally unengaged husbands. The ministry does reach women and does try to help them.
But this conference probably would not be their cup of tea. Also when women enter a room with a bunch of guys, it changes the overall dynamics. Guys cannot be as effected as they would be if there were no women in the room. I don’t know why, that’s just the case. It changes the tone considerably. That’s one reason why with this GodMen conference that we’re doing, we don’t allow women into it. Why would women want to go to it in the first place? Most programs at churches are designed for women and kids, there’s hardly any for men. So, yeah, it’s for guys.
MC: So the conference is for guys, but the message also includes women because there are things that they need to understand as well.
PC: Yeah. In regard to the kind of man I am trying to help. The kind of man who struggles with fear and passivity and those issues. Yes, she needs help understanding that. I’ve written a book about that but I don’t really plan on talking about that book. I plan on talking about "No More Christian Nice Guy." I’ll have some copies of "Married But Not Engaged" at the conference but I don’t plan on going into that side of things.
MC: So the guys could buy the book and take it home to their wives so the wives can understand what happened at the conference.
PC: There you go. If they’re the type of man I describe, it will be very helpful. Of course it’s not for every guy. Some guys won’t find the conference helpful but I can tell you that many, many men will.
MC: Is there a movement that’s taking place in the church now where this is a progression from the Promise Keepers movement?
PC: Absolutely, there is a movement of a revitilized male spirituality within Christianity. Instead of saying it’s a problem and that it needs to go away, I"m saying that it actually needs to be embraced. We’re never going to get to the abundant life that Jesus has for us if we believe we have to be the nicest people on the face of the earth all the time.
I had the great pleasure of meeting with Dr. James Dobson a few weeks ago. One show turned into two because he liked the content so much. And I can tell you that he’s not a Christian nice guy. He’s a Christian good guy. There would be no Focus on the Family if James Dobson thought he had to please everyone all the time. You can’t have a redemptive mission in life if you are held captive to this disease to please other people. George Foreman was absolutely wrong when he was interviewed by Fox News. He said, "People should think that Christians are the nicest people in the world."
The word nice is never used in the Bible to describe the character of God. It is never used to describe the behavior of Jesus. It is not listed as a Fruit of the Spirit. But we think that Christians really should be seen as the nicest people of the world. Rather we should be considered as powerfully good people. Right now in church the ideal Christian man is as sweet as pie. Proverbs 28 says the righteous are as bold as lions. I’m going to go with the Bible on this one. Jesus wants a shrewd follower. We tend to think of shrewdness as synonimous with criminal behavior. But look at Luke Chapter 16, the Parable of the Shrewd Manager. The chances are no Christian attending this conference has ever heard a sermon on how to be more shrewd in the service of God. Jesus, in his own words in the Gospel of Matthew said, "I send you out like sheep among wolves, be wise as serpents, innocent as doves." The word for wise is synonomous with shrewd and cunning. We don’t think Christian men should be shrewd and cunning. We think they should be nice.
I lived that lifestyle for decades. It is a recipe for disaster. You don’t get anywhere in life. It ruins your marriage, you don’t get ahead in work, your children don’t respect you. You really are unable to show a very powerful level of love for other people. It makes you fodder for other people’s agendas.
MC: What was the turning point for you that took you from being a nice guy to a good guy and made you realize that was a message that other men needed to hear.
PC: The main thing is that I saw the real Jesus for the first time. I didn’t get it from the church. I didn’t get it from a sermon. What woke me up initially was a fantastic little book called "The Humor of Christ," <Link: http://www.amazon.com/Humor-Christ-Harper-Jubilee-Books/dp/0060686316/ref=ed_oe_p/102-4884565-9230504 by Elton Trueblood. It’s out of print now. It was published by Harper & Row, I think. In it he basically says you either have to admit Jesus was sarcastic or a lot of the Bible doesn’t make sense.
One of the best examples was when he turns to the Pharisees and says, "You have such a fine way of ignoring the commandments of God." Either he is being sarcastic or Jesus is really complimenting people who ignore the commandments of God. Now of course the Pharisees pretended like they did but they didn’t. It’s another way of saying you strain at gnats and swallow whole camels. I saw that and I thought, "Wow, Jesus was sarcastic." I always thought he was the sweetest guy who ever skipped across ancient soil. When you grow up in the church, that’s what you learn. If he’s sarcastic, then he’s not a nice guy all the time. Then I thought, "Where are other examples here he’s not nice?" It’s a whole ‘nother Gospel when you realize that Jesus’ goal wasn’t to earn everyone’s favor, it was to fulfill his redemptive mission in life. It’s changed the way I look at Jesus. It made him far more inspiring and awesome, and powerful, and relatable. He really came to life for me. And I thought, if it wasn’t wrong for Jesus to behave this way, well then it’s not wrong for me.
When we ask ourselves the question, "What Would Jesus Do?" how come we always assume a mild and gentle response when Jesus was not always mild and gentle? The Gospels are packed with examples. Mark tells us entire crowds were in fear of him. His own disciples wanted to ask him a question but they were afraid of the answer. By the third chapter of Mark his own friends and/or family, depending on the translation, tried to seize him because they believed he’d lost his mind. And you know what, when you let Jesus out of his Sunday best clothing, out of that nice strait jacket we’ve had him in, you think the same thing as well. You think this guy is uncontainable.
Yeah, it’s part of a larger movement. Mark Galli, managing editor of Christianity Today, wrote an excellent book "Jesus Mean and Wild," which has a very similar message. My message largely is that it’s still love. But it’s another kind of love. It’s a tough love that we get out of Jesus. It’s not Christian men behaving tender or tough. It’s being both tender and tough the way Jesus was both tender and tough; we’re supposed to emulate him. I’m trying to point out a stronger side of the faith. If all you consume is this sweet Gospel stuff, in Christianity, in your faith life, it isn’t going to last very long. It’s like simple carbohydrates. They are not built to last. The real Gospel, the tough Gospel, that’s the stuff that will get you through the dark night of the lonely soul. Just staying on the sweet side of things, no wonder so many people walk away from the faith. No wonder the church cannot attract more men. Women outnumber men in all forms of Christianity except for the possible exception of the Eastern Orthodox. And it’s the worst in the African American community where families are in desperate need of help in staying together and all of the benefits that come from the blessing of a family.
MC: When you ask yourself, "What Would Jesus Do?" and part of the answer is to drive the money changers out of the temple, that changes the picture.
PC: It does, especially when you realize it was a premeditated act. The Gospel of John tells us that he made the whip out of cords, out of rope. He wasn’t going to allow people to carry a basket through the temple, he was that enraged. What would Jesus do? It might include physically intimidating other people. We think that when we become Christian men that we become pacifists, honorary members of the American folk singers association. We neither become pacifists nor do we become jihadists. But this is not a common message.
MC: So what else has to be done to get the message out?
PC: We need to show all of Jesus. We need to kill this false idol we’ve made of him. He was not "Gentle Jesus, meek and mild," one of the most infamous lines ever penned by one of the Wesley brothers. I can’t remember which brother it was who wrote that hymn but what a joke. Saying that Jesus was meek and mild all the time is like saying Karl Marx was a capitalist, or that Abraham Lincoln didn’t care about the union staying together or that Martin Luther King didn’t care about civil rights. It is so contrary to the record. The record shows a whole other Jesus, but we refuse to show it. This refusal is ruining marriages. It’s ruining spiritual lives. It’s taking needed protection and provision away from families. It’s making wives anxious and upset that they have to wear the pants in the family all the time because the guys simply will not step up to the plate of life. So called men’s ministry has not done a very good job, particularly when it comes to marriage.
I don’t know if you’re familiar with this preaching, it was real popular in the nineties: If there’s a problem with a Christian man’s marriage, it’s his fault. This is what they were told. He is the spiritual leader in the home and if he’s not leading well then that’s the reason why his marriage has gone sour. Because the argument is that wives will automatically follow good leadership, people follow good leadership. Let’s check that theory out. What happened to Jesus? What happened to Stephen? What happened to John the Baptist? What happened to most of the apostles. What happened to Abraham Lincoln, Martin Luther King, Gandhi? They were killed! People don’t automatically follow good leadership. That’s not even found in the Bible.
Another example, I was told in church that women are more moral and spiritual than men. As my pastor put it, they are more sensitive to the Holy Spirit. Search your Bible and you’ll never find that. But this is what we told Christian men in the nineties. I do individual instruction with Christian men. I know ones who will no longer go to church because of that message. They were blamed for their divorce, it was all put on them. As a result they are livid with the church. They don’t even want to talk about spiritual matters. It’s a great spiritual sucker punch that many Christian men have received. No one can bring themselves to mention it or talk about it. Apparently it’s up to me.
MC: That’s a pretty heavy responsibility.
PC: It’s wild, you know. Here’s a guy who never went to seminary. I’m just a laity dude.
MC: What is your background?
PC: I had three profound teachers: pain, suffering and misery. I went through a lot of pain following the standard men’s ministry script, the things you’re supposed to do with your wife, in your marriage. A lot of the stuff sounds great but it doesn’t work. A lot is not even found in the Bible. That’s largely what qualifies me to talk about this stuff. I have a degree in journalism, I was the editor of a newspaper. I was the program director of a Christian radio station. I still have a talk show on a Christian radio station. I question the assumptions that many of us think are on target. I don’t do it because I’m a critic of the church. I do it because I love the church. The church saved my soul. I’m trying to make the world a better place. I’ve had emails from people telling me that my book No More Christian Nice Guy not only saved them from despair, it helped pull them out of depression. When I was in Nashville at Godmen, a guy pulled me aside and said "your book saved my marriage." The nice Christian lifestyle is a dangerous lifestyle for many. You need to be good, not nice.
One single lady in Christian publishing said, after learning about No More Christian Nice Guy, "me and my single girl friends have a saying now, that the ideal man to date has only been in the church for two years. That way there’s still some masculinity left." The way in which we do church extracts masculinity from guys.